Curse

SurrealFi · Jul 06, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

/target HuntMaster Avatar
/bow

On an other matter:

The problem with the approach today is the constant nerfing (except the last buff to rits and paras, that was a great surprice! Almost no nerfing at all). The people in charge takes a long look at the popular skills and tries to figure out how to make them less imba. What they should do is to focuse on other skills and give the playerbase a more desirable content to chose from instead of narrowing it down to -Good Skills- and -Nerfed Skills-

Toss the nerf bat into the bonfire and bring in the buff wand!

Wish Swiftdeath · Jul 06, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

That would be great if it happened but the problem is buffing stuff destroys the balance of the game.

It's nigh on impossible to buff lets say 20 skills without bringing something totally broken and ridiculous into the game which gets abused for 2-3 months before anet makes a half-assed attempt to fix it.

I think that's actually what caused the problem in the first place, skills these days are far far stronger than they were in prophecies days both in terms of damage and healing (WoH anyone?). This means that we see more gimmicky stuff being run, more emphasis on the skill bars you run with less emphasis on things like positioning and clever usage of skills.

That said I think that (with the exception of Bspike) that this is quite a good period in terms of game balance - well at least compared to the last year or so.

slith · Jul 06, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

If shadow form gets nerfed then another gimmick build will pop up that will be just as effective. Sure between the two builds there ill be a time of a better economy. But once the new build comes out you'll be back here QQ'ing about it again.

And really your not complaining with pve overall your just complaining about the ease of farming these days. Think about you title next time all you did was rant about one aspect of pve.

SurrealFi · Jul 06, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Yes it's true that it is harder to buff skills rather than just nerf the more problematic builds down to oblivion.. Or it would have been true a year or two back. Buffing skills isnt a problem anymore, since what can be buffed in pve doesnt have to be changed in pvp at all and vice versa.

the_jos · Jul 06, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I'm just picking out a small part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silicagel

However, I'm alarmed at the way the vast majority of pve is played and I sense there's a lack of variety as well as skill and knowledge on the part of several key classes(i.e. monks).

This sounds to me like PUG play.

GW has a huge number of people farming stuff. Loot or titles. Those will use the most efficient builds to do so, specially with those things that take ages to achieve.
To given an example: yesterday I was chatting to a former guildie and he asked me why I don't speed clear for my max Luxon title instead of playing AB.
Doing it SC will get me the title in approx one or two weekends (if my shoulder lasts that long...). AB will take me a couple of months.

The same applies to other farms. I never had any issues with my income, I just made sure my spendings were in check with them. No need to farm and don't care about those rare weapons. When I'm lucky I get them else I don't.

On PvE side there isn't much else left to do for people with a couple of thousands of hours on their account. Sure, start a new profession. Learn to play it. And then? Nothing. Yay, I can play warrior and be awesome. But since everyone is farming they won't notice it....

This ain't my style of play. I play for fun, do some stuff I've done numerous times. When I want somewhat of a challenge I get my second account and do stuff on that. Hardly any elites unlocked, bad or no heroes. Play with guildies or chat with old friends. Tag along for a Forge run with an ex-guildie.
I enjoy seeing others have a good time getting the stuff done that they want to get done.

I know my professions and how to play them. I might crack under some serious PvP pressure when playing monk but I don't need to play HB or UA monk in PvE. Regular preprot works good enough when the party doesn't draw aggro all over. Guardian here, SoA there. PS when caster is attacked by something doing huge damage. Clean conditions and hexes.

However, this ain't PUG play. This is playing with people who either enjoy playing balanced or don't really care about the teambuild since they just want to get something done for fun. Failure? That's ok, we'll learn from that and start over. It's a game, spending some hours instead of watching TV or doing boring household stuff or reading a book or drawing.

Till recently I cared about gameplay. I stopped doing that. If others want to learn how to play balanced or enjoy that and are lucky enough to bump into one of my officers they might get an invite.
I also know there are still a couple of decent guilds around that mainly play balanced teams. But the majority of the players is only involved in some form of farming nowadays. Because there is not that much else to do when you want to stick in PvE.

That's how the PvE game evolved the past few years and I think it's far more broken than your post stated.

Gotejjeken · Jul 06, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Titles in general are nothing BUT farming, so with tc's logic anyone who wants a title should quit the game. Look, I'm not sure we you have been but GW has always been about the money and PUG's have always sucked. Adding another build that can farm areas isn't doing anything but keeping people (such as myself) who've done mostly everything you can do in PvE, playing the game. Basically by your logic you're telling people that have done everything but gather some prestige armor to quit because they getting said armor too fast? Why would I want to spend a lot more time getting the stuff with nerfed builds? You only live once you know.

I believe this thread boils down to crying about farming being 'too easy' nowdays and allowing people who do not want to sink thousands of hours into the game to get the same rewards someone who previously sank thousands of hours in the game has.

Plain and simple, if I want something such as a tormented weapon there is no way around farming...people are just too stupid in game to try to get said weapon 'properly'.

Kendel · Jul 06, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerzFTW

Yes, because that's how farming works. When you've done everything there's to do, and you want to get shiny stuff, this is what you can do to get it. Makes sense. You want to get it the fastest, so you do farm areas repeatedly until you get desired loot. This is because the only things worth farming are rare, and unless you are very lucky, you don't get what you are trying to get in just one run.

Awesome. You spend your time doing something you clearly don't want to do so you can get an item that you probably don't even like the look of for the purpose of 'e-peen' and once you've got them you do... what exactly? You don't like playing the game, suddenly the only thing you wanted to do has been achieved. Quit now because your farming build got nerfed or quit in 6 months after you've abused it non-stop, i couldn't care less because you don't play the game anymore anyway.

I find it laughable how many players, especially Sins, have Chaos Gloves. You seriously telling me all those people bought it because THEY like it and not because they think it makes them look better? They are hideous and stand out way too much to actually fit in with the rest of your armour. Or the Tormented Shield? Oh yeah because that really looks good with your Monks bright white chaos gloves and terrible 'elite' armour.

Apok Omen · Jul 06, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Nerfing OP skills isn't the way to go. It won't matter if they do, anyway. You notice that before Ursan was nerfed, speed clear teams had to use 3 con sets just to clear UW, DoA, and FoW. That's 1 1/2 hrs of running around and mashing buttons. Now, with SF and tank+nuke teams, teams barely make use of the full duration of 1 con set (can't speak for DoA, though)

So, go ahead, nerf SF. People will adjust and maybe even make runs faster than what they already are, thus causing the economy to plummet some more. And if Anet buffs Ursan back to the way it was, people won't even consider it.

You see, nerfing Ursan was one of the downfalls of farming, since the next option was actually the fastest. And if you nerf SF, the next option might be even faster. You just have to give top-PvErs time to find the answer.

Kendel · Jul 06, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Nerfing OP skills isn't the way to go. It won't matter if they do, anyway. You notice that before Ursan was nerfed, speed clear teams had to use 3 con sets just to clear UW, DoA, and FoW. That's 1 1/2 hrs of running around and mashing buttons. Now, with SF and tank+nuke teams, teams barely make use of the full duration of 1 con set (can't speak for DoA, though)

So, go ahead, nerf SF. People will adjust and maybe even make runs faster than what they already are, thus causing the economy to plummet some more. And if Anet buffs Ursan back to the way it was, people won't even consider it.

You see, nerfing Ursan was one of the downfalls of farming, since the next option was actually the fastest. And if you nerf SF, the next option might be even faster. You just have to give top-PvErs time to find the answer.

If you think anything in the game could possibly match a Permasin for tanking you are deluded. Nothing will be able to replace the Permasin, it can't be touched by the majority of skills used in the game, the skills that can bypass it can be worked around (i know DoA perma's use Stoneflesh with a Life Barrier monk).

Targren · Jul 06, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Self-obsessed farmer version:

"WAAAHHH! I can't clear a high-end area in 15 minutes with 0 effort! Buff SF! Buff RoJ! Buff CoP! Make everyone run Speed Clears! Buff PvE skills! Help me make the economy even more worthless!"

Yeah i can do that too. I just think mines more accurate.

Yep. Cause every time Anet listens to their incessant QQing and nerfs something, farming stops once and for all.

Oh wait, no it doesn't. You're not accurate at all. What the whiners often forget is that the farmers are amongst the most resourceful players in the game. Every time we get hit with the nerf stick, something new comes along. Got around anti-farm code. Got around myriad nerfs to SF, 55 monks, etc...

And farming persists. Because, as someone said above, after you've played for so long, there's nothing to do BUT farm. If by some miracle Anet does find a way to stop it for good, the farmers are NOT going to go out and start playing with the whining gits who got it nerfed. They've done it all already. They're just going to leave the game, probably pissed off, and play something else.

It's been almost 2 years since we got any new content, and that was a piddly small amount, easily completed inside of a month. Before that, nearly 3 years since NF. Now, there is titles. Titles means grinding and farming.

And stop talking about the economy. There is not one worth speaking of. There never will be. It is impossible to apply "economic" rules when there is infinite supply of anything. Blaming the drop in price from chest drops on shadow form is ridiculous. The longer anything is available, even rare things, the lower the price gets, because there are more and no one is merching these things (there's that lousy "infinite supply" gotcha again). If the price drops faster because more people can get it, GOOD. Eternal swords and chaos gloves for everybody (if they like that sort of thing)! Maybe then people will stop basing their ego on a goddamn game and trying to dictate how others play it.

Kendel · Jul 06, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Oh wait, no it doesn't. You're not accurate at all. What the whiners often forget is that the farmers are amongst the most resourceful players in the game. Every time we get hit with the nerf stick, something new comes along. Got around anti-farm code. Got around myriad nerfs to SF, 55 monks, etc...

What? I recall the farmers were the ones 'QQing' when SF was first nerfed and for some stupid reason was then buffed again to be made perma-able. The nerfs have been pathetic. If they wanted to eliminate the 55 monk completely, a good starting point would've been to make the -75 non-stackable with identical runes, limiting it more or less to the Ele only. SF could be nerfed anytime in 100s of ways. 600s could be stopped easily, a great starting point would be to block players from equipping low AL armour in HM and to stop Wrath/Retri dealing full damage despite SoA reducing damage to 0. I bet you honestly think making Reversal of Damage effect the smiter was a proper nerf that these 'resourceful' farmers got around by not being complete retards and taking a self heal signet.

Quote:

And farming persists. Because, as someone said above, after you've played for so long, there's nothing to do BUT farm. If by some miracle Anet does find a way to stop it for good, the farmers are NOT going to go out and start playing with the whining gits who got it nerfed. They've done it all already. They're just going to leave the game, probably pissed off, and play something else.

Yes. There is.

Its called MOVE ON! If all you play this game for is farming, its about time you found a game you actually enjoy playing. Perhaps after taking a break you might come back and find something you like doing again.

Targren · Jul 06, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

What? I recall the farmers were the ones 'QQing' when SF was first nerfed and for some stupid reason was then buffed again to be made perma-able.

Between the nerf and the rebuff, the farming continued.

Quote:

If they wanted to eliminate the 55 monk completely, a good starting point would've been to make the -75 non-stackable with identical runes, limiting it more or less to the Ele only.

Then they'll farm with the Ele.

Quote:

SF could be nerfed anytime in 100s of ways.

And it soon will be, I wager. Despite them saying that they don't want to make it useless (which it will be unless it can be kept permanently), I'm pretty sure the whinging will have it's desired affect soon. And farming will continue.

Quote:

I bet you honestly think making Reversal of Damage effect the smiter was a proper nerf that these 'resourceful' farmers got around by not being complete retards and taking a self heal signet.

There's no such thing as a "proper" nerf that doesn't involve rebalancing the entire game.

Quote:

Yes. There is.
Its called MOVE ON! If all you play this game for is farming, its about time you found a game you actually enjoy playing. Perhaps after taking a break you might come back and find something you like doing again.

Who said that we didn't enjoy farming? I admit I'm not "hardcore" enough that I play a game I don't like for the sake of playing it. That's the part you're failing to absorb. Just because YOU might not enjoy it, does NOT imply that others don't. So you go do what you like, leave us to do what we like, rather than having the unmitigated gall to tell people they should stop playing because you don't approve of their playstyle. You're just not that important.

the_jos · Jul 06, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotejjeken

Why would I want to spend a lot more time getting the stuff with nerfed builds? You only live once you know.

So if you didn't have those OP builds you would quit playing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotejjeken

I believe this thread boils down to crying about farming being 'too easy' nowdays and allowing people who do not want to sink thousands of hours into the game to get the same rewards someone who previously sank thousands of hours in the game has.

No, what annoys me and several other players is that people who acutally have some playing skill beyond smashing buttons at the right time do get some serious punishment for playing a regular game. UW SC times are at 15-20 mins? How long would you say balanced play would take? 1-1.5 hour for a decent team? By not playing SC people are shooting themselfs in the foot because the difference in income is enormous. This keeps prices of several items artificial high and out of reach of non-farmers.
I don't want to be forced to play your kind of game to get something nice. I don't mind playing some more time for it, but 4-6 times is a bit too much I'd say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotejjeken

Plain and simple, if I want something such as a tormented weapon there is no way around farming...people are just too stupid in game to try to get said weapon 'properly'.

Eh? I just played DoA a couple of times and got my gems.
I can't help it that others can't do that. The same kind of players who are easily able to UWSC. See how wrong this actually is?

Tullzinski · Jul 06, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirds

The problem is the level design, an area like DoA basically restricts the team build to very few options. The level design is way too unforgiving and the constant power creep basically forces you to abuse game mechanics to actually have a chance to complete the last areas.

Read what boko said! This is post of the month. Seriously.

So in a nutshell....Nerf the level. Still too much work bring back Ursan/SF and any other skill that has been broken.

wetwillyhip · Jul 06, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

i maybe the first one, but i agree with your post 100%. many of these ideas i've had in my mind for awhile. great post.

Monk of Myst · Jul 06, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by silicagel

On to the next issue, pve monks. While I think they can be good elites at times, generally speaking they are not clear cut choices for pve monking.. that being healer's boon and unyielding aura. The problem with HB is that it's an enchantment that can be stripped and uses up a slot on the all important monk skill bar. If it goes, so does the ability for you to heal effectively, if it's on your bar.. you're probably lacking something in utility.. mainly hex and condition removal since the vast majority of pve monks don't understand the importance of these skills. I've literally had pve monks tell me that I should bring my own hex or condition removal..well guess what, you win.. I sometimes indulge your type and do this because I won't survive or be useful without it. Just try the pure heals concept in pvp.

Hexes and conditions *do* matter, and removal will help a martial class tremendously because such classes are innately prone to the vast selection of hexes and conditions that inhibit a martial class vs a caster. If you try using these other classes in your team build, you will not only benefit from what they have to offer, you will benefit from helping them out. Oh and btw, they generally need less healing. As for UA, the most obvious problem is the -1 pip while in use. Energy mismangement can really inhibit a monk, and it is very easy to goof up when you have the energy regen of a ranger. It also absorbs a slot.. which would probably be taken be a res skill. UA is suitable for res purposes because it has fast activation, but is it a good choice for a pve monk elite? Not necessarily. Yes, I realize that there are numerous res skills available to monks, but that doesn't mean it's wise to use them. This is yet another problem with pve monking. I realize it will probably never go away, but I might as well say something about it. In pvp monks don't bring a res, and that's because they're slow activating skills that can not only be interrupted but place your team mates in harm's way while you're trying to activate them. It really isn't any different in pve, monks generally shouldn't use res skills unless a UA build is viable. Everyone else should bring a res. That said, HB and UA are good skills that are still acceptable for certain areas, but are the standard for irrational reasons that should be kicked to the curb. Like I said earlier, what's wrong with WoH? Yes, WoH has flaws too, but there are few if any skills that can heal as effectively for five energy, hence it's prevelance in arena(and even AB) play...but I must emphasize that WoH is perfectly viable in pve too, just as viable as UA or HB if not more in some cases. Before the release of nightfall, WoH(that you couldn't self target with, you can now :P) was exceedingly common on monk bars because it did the job and guess what.. it still does. Other monk elites I feel are viable for pve use include zealous benediction, peace and harmony and defender's zeal. I'm sure others can be used effectively depending on the situation, but that's the short list.

I would like to state now that although I am a monk, I do agree with about 80% of what you just said. However, my problem with your idea of not bringing rez is that you're now getting tunnel visioned yourself on the idea of power and healing. I am a firm believer that EVERYONE should carry a rez of some sort. I've been on too many missions with too many idiots who run in and get everyone killed except for you. I understand that a monk should be able to heal everyone but you can only do so much when a group of idiots agro multiple mobs. This is when the monk needs to run away and rez everyone.

I also look at rez as one of those things that can mean the difference between us finishing a mission and starting over, especially if you're at the last leg of the mission. If that's the case, I'd rather sacrifice one skill and carry the rez than start over.

Lishy · Jul 06, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

Don't twist words. Heros may be fun and all since you customize them and they are there 24/7, but I have like 0 fun in PvE because of them. I played another online game that did the 8 skill thing and that one forced you to play with other people to do things... and it was way more fun than Guild Wars ever has been for me, despite having a crapload of beta problems (framerates of like 1 frame every 5 seconds in the endboss and taking up almost a gig of ram not even fullscreened due to be coded in flash, limited skills, etc). Real people are not always horrible players or DURR HURRRR WHUT DO WE DOOOOO?" I rarely encounter those type of people, and they seem to weed themselves out if I ever get them (they will leave because they'll think eveyboyd but them was the problem). PUGs have a bad rep, but can make the game way more fun. Plus I've met tons of people in that other game and if they'd iron out the lag I might go back lol. And say you can "play with your friends", but if everybody is pvxing their heros and taking henchmen, then is that statement true?

I may sound against heros 100% lol, but I do see how they are necessary and like using them myself, but they just clash with PUGs and I'm not sure what a solution would be.

So you're saying we should force people who don't want to play with other people to play with other people who don't want to play with other people because you can't find friends and because you're "bored"?

Nice reasoning

Excuse me while I go 6-hero vanquish with my guildies.

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 07, 2009, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by silicagel

(...) Pve monks often bring HB or UA builds that center around seed of life and/or heal party with poorly thought out utility or versatility. What ever happened to WoH? What's wrong with WoH? I'll tell you, absolutely nothing.. it's great, HB and UA are the flavors of the month. (...)

With all respect... HB is deffinately not a "flavor of the month"
2 dervs in HM running in the centre of your party are enough to do a spike of 200dmg+ in a blink of an eye to 4-5 party members. I wish you luck countering this with WoH. If you think everyone can hold the agro and scatter everytime when the spikes come... then you must be living in a different world. Add to this ele enemy with Invoke Lightning on the skillbar and DP is almost guaranteed
HB + Heal Party is FTW when it comes to random spike on your party

Quote:

(...) On to the next issue, pve monks. While I think they can be good elites at times, generally speaking they are not clear cut choices for pve monking.. that being healer's boon and unyielding aura. The problem with HB is that it's an enchantment that can be stripped and uses up a slot on the all important monk skill bar. If it goes, so does the ability for you to heal effectively, if it's on your bar.. you're probably lacking something in utility.. mainly hex and condition removal since the vast majority of pve monks don't understand the importance of these skills (...)

For 80% of the time you'll be either enchanted with something, hexed or have a condition on you. First two trigger Dwaynas Kiss, that combined with HB heals for... "quite a lot". There is similar skill for conditions
Some monks simply don't bother with bringing a hex removal with 12 seconds recharge. You cast it... only to find out 2 seconds later someone else is hexed
There are of course areas where you simply can't walk in without hex and con removal (Frostmaw) but most of the game HB simply does the job

Avarre · Jul 07, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

With all respect... HB is deffinately not a "flavor of the month"
2 dervs in HM running in the centre of your party are enough to do a spike of 200dmg+ in a blink of an eye to 4-5 party members. I wish you luck countering this with WoH.

If you're balled up against mobs with AoE without prot, you have bigger issues.

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 07, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If you're balled up against mobs with AoE without prot, you have bigger issues.

If you think everyone can hold the agro and scatter everytime when the spikes come... then you must be living in a different world.